General Etiquette Guidelines
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Posted by brooks hoppities 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 7:09 PM
#76

hoppities wrote:
Honestly, I get that strollers are an inconvenience in the exhibition hall, but come on. As a father of two little boys, you definitely want a stroller over the other stuff. Now, I don't bring my kids to Gencon yet, but they've been to plenty of other large events with big crowds.
How else do you expect me to carry around everything I need for them? Little kids need snacks, diapers, wipes, changing pads, water/formula/milk/juice. How about the books or small toys that tend to travel with little kids? There's usually a blanket or two if it's going to extend around or near nap time, or the lighting is crazy bright for the baby. Let's not forget that you also need extra clothes because who knows when the 5 month old will explode or the two year old will decide that his PB&J works better as a paint set for his shirt than as lunch.
You might as well tell parents they're banned from the hall. Granted, I'm not going to bring a double jogger, but strollers are wonderful and almost necessary for long days out.
Just put up with it so that young parents who bring their kids can enjoy the con.
For a community that tends to be extremely supportive, I'm shocked by the lack of support for families with young children that I've seen here.

Trust me there's not a lack of support for young parents, just a few persons who apparently are morally opposed to anything that inconveniences them in the dealer hall. 

Remember that attendance is above 60,000, so one or two people with grievances on these forums doesn't constitute anything meaningful. 

Bring on that stroller and just try not to whack many people with it. As a father of 6 year-old twins if you do whack me with it I'll understand and that's what this gaming community should be about. 

Posted by roderick 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 7:18 PM
#77

People need to have situational awareness - if you have a stroller, wheelie bag, huge backpack, or a big bag of a dozen games you just bought from Fantasy Flight, you need to be aware of your surroundings and how you can affect those around you. 

If you have nothing but your wallet, you need be aware of people around you, whether they are stopped looking at a booth, pushing a stroller (etc.) or getting pictures. 

It's up to you to be aware of how you might affect others, and how others might affect you. And it's your responsibility to minimize the potential damage - either to yourself or others. 

Practice defensive shopping, like defensive driving. 

Posted by aaronmlopez roderick 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 8:02 PM
#78

roderick wrote: Practice defensive shopping, like defensive driving. 

I know what you mean!!! Last year, I had two gamers pull out right in front of me... not yielding the right of way to oncoming traffic. Then, after that, Someone cut me off near the Upper Deck booth without even using a turn signal... If it were not for my defensive shopping skills, I could have run someone over. There would have been MTG cards and dice all over the aisle which probably would have taken up the rest of the convention to clean up due to the traffic congestion causing delays in getting emergency crews in.

Posted by quarex 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 8:15 PM
#79

In the past there have definitely been arguments about people bringing strollers into the Exhibition Hall, but I remember them always being grouped in with the enormous rolling luggage pieces that double as seats that some people bring.  Which helped because then you could say "look, some people need a portable place to sit down occasionally, some people have young children who need strollers, just make sure you try to minimize inconveniencing others and it is all good."

I have certainly had negative experiences with all sorts of people possessing bulky things to carry or push around Gen-Con, but honestly the only problems I have had with strollers were when someone foolishly believed their ~3-5-year-old was responsible enough to be in charge.  I think an adult in control of their child's stroller is the least-worrying "extracurricular mass" situation at Gen-Con.

Posted by gharris njseahawksfan 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 10:32 PM
#80

njseahawksfan wrote:
gharris wrote:
 

You are falsely equating people with disabilities with people using strollers. People CHOOSE to use strollers. Not the same thing at all.Also, as I have pointed out, there is a LOT to Gen Con that is not the exhibit hall, there are sections of the hall that are specially set aside for little kids, there is a spa program full of activities for kids, and there are plenty of games outside of the exhibit hall that you love to see a youngster in a stroller. 
Make no mistake, you are CHOOSING to disrupt traffic and put your children in a questionable setting when you try to bring a stroller down the aisles of the exhibit hall.
Gen Con is not just about the dealer hall. That is a small part of the overall show. besides the rest of the convention center there is an entire stadium and several hotels worth of things to do that are more appropriate for kids in strollers.

Man, I have no idea what kind of convention you think GenCon is if you think the dealer hall is a "questionable setting" for children.  There are *literally* entire areas of the dealer hall devoted to children and children's games.EDIT - Here's a link to the dealer hall map for this year.  Note the area labeled "Family Fun Pavilion"
https://www.gencon.com/map?lt=8.809082353052137&lg=45.13183593750001&z=5&f=1&c=13
 

Go back and reread my previous posts. I actually mention the Family Fun Pavilion and Training Grounds as being separate parts of the exhibit hall where small children are welcome, and I pointed out that you can get to them without causing a hassle for the rest of the attendees in the hall.

Posted by gharris brooks 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 10:42 PM
#81

brooks wrote:
gharris wrote:
brooks wrote:

Sorry, but if you are planning a vacation with very small kids who need a stroller part of being a good parent is realizing that you are restricted in what you really should be doing. Outside of the areas set aside for little kids the exhibit hall aisle are not a place for strollers. rather than saying "too bad, suck it up" to everyone else in the hall you should be looking into child care, taking turns in the hall with your spouse/family/friends/whoever you came with, visit a few booths while someone else watched the kids in the family areas, or just do what parents have done for generations- realize that little kids are not going to be able to do everything that you want to do on vacation and change YOUR plans accordingly. There is always next year, price of being a parent.

I would be very cautious about telling parents what is necessary for being a good parent. I would also be even more cautious about telling parents how to manage their children. I understand that you hate strollers in the exhibit hall, but until GenCon tells them they are prohibited in the exhibit hall they're welcome to be there just like anyone else with a badge. Good etiquette is also placing the wellbeing of others before your own. 
 
As I pointed out pretty much everything else mentioned in this thread also aren't technically prohibited but you still shouldn't do them. People don't get a free pass just because they are parents- a lot of horrible parents thrive on the notion of "Don't tell me how to raise my child!" (not that I am accusing anyone here of doing that)You again hit the nail right on the head- placing the wellbeing of others before your own is the hallmark of good manners. Bringing a stroller into the exhibit hall aisles is creating a potential hazard for your child and an obstruction to everyone else, you are sacrificing their wellbeing for your own. By definition that is bad etiquette.

Okay... cite me an example of when a child has been hurt in the exhibit hall from being in a stroller. Something that showed up in the local Indy papers or television stations or radio stations or whatever. Or even cite me an example of when a child was traumatized by being in the exhibit hall. And yes there are horrible parents in the world, but it's not our responsibility to tell them how to raise their kids. No one has a right or a responsibility to tell someone what to do with their child. If you see a situation wherein a child is in that much in danger, alert the authorities.
Finally by your agreement that good etiquette is sacrificing something for the wellbeing of others, I just don't get why you are so against strollers. Shouldn't you, as a practitioner of good etiquette, whenever you see a stroller and recognizing that the young parent has a lot more challenges in the hall then you do, step aside, smile and wish them a good convention?

Seriously? There was an example earlier in this thread of an 11 year old getting nailed by a backpack. I have been through the exhibit hall every year for 28 years now. I have been elbowed, run onto, hit with bags, stepped on, smashed in by my fellow attendees, and yes even hit by people pushing STROLLERS. Is there some sort of force field that protects a stroller? Are the occupants of a stroller not more vulnerable to injury from these mishaps than a grown man? Or speaking to your trauma point, you have never seen a kid at Gen Con having a meltdown because they are way over stimulated?

Not telling people how to raise their kids is not the same as ignoring people who are doing something that is causing a problem. 

It is not realistic to expect every person subjected to the hassles of strollers in the aisles to just automatically be like "fine, whatever". Take some responsibility for causing the hassle. 

Posted by gharris ryanjamison 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 10:44 PM
#82

ryanjamison wrote:
brooks wrote:
Okay... cite me an example of when a child has been hurt in the exhibit hall from being in a stroller. Something that showed up in the local Indy papers or television stations or radio stations or whatever. Or even cite me an example of when a child was traumatized by being in the exhibit hall. And yes there are horrible parents in the world, but it's not our responsibility to tell them how to raise their kids. No one has a right or a responsibility to tell someone what to do with their child. If you see a situation wherein a child is in that much in danger, alert the authorities.
Finally by your agreement that good etiquette is sacrificing something for the wellbeing of others, I just don't get why you are so against strollers. Shouldn't you, as a practitioner of good etiquette, whenever you see a stroller and recognizing that the young parent has a lot more challenges in the hall then you do, step aside, smile and wish them a good convention?

As far as I can see, gharris isn't saying people with strollers are bad parents, or telling them how to raise their kids, just that they're being inconsiderate to other attendees. Playing devil's advocate here, strollers make carting the kids around easier, but then it makes getting around the isles for everyone else more difficult. Just like carting around big bags of games is easier than taking them back to your hotel room, but you shouldn't do it in the exhibit hall.Sure, you can just not care about it, but then that goes for literally everything people are mentioning in this thread. It's the etiquette thread, not the vigilante justice thread. You're free to do what you want, people are just mentioning what you shouldn't do because it inconveniences others. gharris isn't doing anything to the stroller people.

I know we don't always agree (its cool, we are just adults with different opinions) but I think you understand exactly where I am coming from.

Posted by gharris brooks 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 10:56 PM
#83

brooks wrote:

As far as I can see, gharris isn't saying people with strollers are bad parents, or telling them how to raise their kids, just that they're being inconsiderate to other attendees. Playing devil's advocate here, strollers make carting the kids around easier, but then it makes getting around the isles for everyone else more difficult. Just like carting around big bags of games is easier than taking them back to your hotel room, but you shouldn't do it in the exhibit hall.Sure, you can just not care about it, but then that goes for literally everything people are mentioning in this thread. It's the etiquette thread, not the vigilante justice thread. You're free to do what you want, people are just mentioning what you shouldn't do because it inconveniences others. gharris isn't doing anything to the stroller people.

I would respectfully disagree as he specifically illustrates what is a good parent: "Sorry, but if you are planning a vacation with very small kids who need a stroller part of being a good parent is realizing that you are restricted in what you really should be doing."There are also instructions for parents on how to conduct their children: "you should be looking into child care, taking turns in the hall with your spouse/family/friends/whoever you came with, visit a few booths while someone else watched the kids in the family areas, or just do what parents have done for generations- realize that little kids are not going to be able to do everything that you want to do on vacation and change YOUR plans accordingly. There is always next year, price of being a parent."

I actually didn't say anyone was a bad parent. I just know what the excuse of people dragging a stroller into the exhibit hall will be and that there is an actual answer to that excuse. 

I assume that gamers are generally smarter and more responsible than the average person. I may have communicated it poorly but I assumed that a good parent would already know all of this but they may need a reminder when distracted by the potential bright and shinys of Gen Con.

That being said, if you truly did not already realize that at least a few of my points were true then yes, I would say that there is some bad parenting going on. 

Posted by brooks 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 11:03 PM
#84

"It is not realistic to expect every person subjected to the hassles of strollers in the aisles to just automatically be like "fine, whatever". Take some responsibility for causing the hassle." 

Yes it is realistic.

Strollers are allowed in the hall and I know that you think that allowed doesn't mean that they should be there. But until they're banned it is what it is. Keep your head on a swivel, maintain awareness of where you're going.

Regarding taking responsibility for causing hassle, every single living being in the exhibit hall is causing hassle. Parents with children in strollers are not causing a problem.  
 

Posted by lilyjade roderick 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 11:19 PM
#85

roderick wrote:
People need to have situational awareness - if you have a stroller, wheelie bag, huge backpack, or a big bag of a dozen games you just bought from Fantasy Flight, you need to be aware of your surroundings and how you can affect those around you. 
This is what it comes down to. If you bring a stroller, bag, kid, backpack, or whatever into the hall you need to be responsible for being aware of the surroundings. Don't be oblivious to the fact that your stroller is blocking half the walkway because of how you have it "parked". Don't be oblivious to how much turn space you need when your backpack is stuffed full. Don't be oblivious to your kid running around swinging his fake sword where there are people. Just be courteous and pay attention.

Posted by gharris brooks 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 11:27 PM
#86

brooks wrote:
"It is not realistic to expect every person subjected to the hassles of strollers in the aisles to just automatically be like "fine, whatever". Take some responsibility for causing the hassle." 
Yes it is realistic.
Strollers are allowed in the hall and I know that you think that allowed doesn't mean that they should be there. But until they're banned it is what it is. Keep your head on a swivel, maintain awareness of where you're going.
Regarding taking responsibility for causing hassle, every single living being in the exhibit hall is causing hassle. Parents with children in strollers are not causing a problem.  
 

At this point it is obvious that you don't care if you are causing a hassle for everyone around you, you just expect that everyone around you will automatically accommodate you so YOU aren't being hassled.

This is why we need an etiquette thread.

Being a person in the hall is not the same as being a person pushing a rolling obstruction in the hall. 

What is even worse is that you will likely be bringing an oversized stroller to accommodate two kids and all of their supplies. Come on, seriously? You don't see this causing a problem for other people? Aisles full of other people?

Posted by brooks gharris 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 11:35 PM
#87

gharris wrote:
brooks wrote:
"It is not realistic to expect every person subjected to the hassles of strollers in the aisles to just automatically be like "fine, whatever". Take some responsibility for causing the hassle." 
Yes it is realistic.
Strollers are allowed in the hall and I know that you think that allowed doesn't mean that they should be there. But until they're banned it is what it is. Keep your head on a swivel, maintain awareness of where you're going.
Regarding taking responsibility for causing hassle, every single living being in the exhibit hall is causing hassle. Parents with children in strollers are not causing a problem.  

At this point it is obvious that you don't care if you are causing a hassle for everyone around you, you just expect that everyone around you will automatically accommodate you so YOU aren't being hassled.This is why we need an etiquette thread.
Being a person in the hall is not the same as being a person pushing a rolling obstruction in the hall. 
What is even worse is that you will likely be bringing an oversized stroller to accommodate two kids and all of their supplies. Come on, seriously? You don't see this causing a problem for other people? Aisles full of other people?

Wow, and now we're resorting to personal attacks (you don't care.) To reiterate one more time I attend alone and do not have a stroller, but I do not care if anyone else does. In fact I welcome them because they're bringing in the next generation of roleplaying/board gaming/miniatures/etc.  

You said that you've been attending for 28 years and that's great. I don't feel the need to compare the size of our... attendance. We're not going to agree so let's just let it go.  

Posted by gharris lilyjade 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 11:45 PM
#88

lilyjade wrote:
roderick wrote:
People need to have situational awareness - if you have a stroller, wheelie bag, huge backpack, or a big bag of a dozen games you just bought from Fantasy Flight, you need to be aware of your surroundings and how you can affect those around you. 
This is what it comes down to. If you bring a stroller, bag, kid, backpack, or whatever into the hall you need to be responsible for being aware of the surroundings. Don't be oblivious to the fact that your stroller is blocking half the walkway because of how you have it "parked". Don't be oblivious to how much turn space you need when your backpack is stuffed full. Don't be oblivious to your kid running around swinging his fake sword where there are people. Just be courteous and pay attention.
I am with you on the oblivious part, but I would point out that wherever you "park" a stroller in a walkway it will be blocking traffic, if you drag it into a crowded both it will be blocking traffic in the booth, and while a guy with a big bag or the annoying kid with the sword can move out of the way the stroller is not going to move itself.

If you are going to insist on trying to bring a stroller anyways at least have the good sense not to do so on Friday or especially Saturday when the crowds are at their worst.

Posted by gharris brooks 8 years agoon 6/6/2017 at 11:47 PM
#89

brooks wrote:
gharris wrote:
brooks wrote:
"It is not realistic to expect every person subjected to the hassles of strollers in the aisles to just automatically be like "fine, whatever". Take some responsibility for causing the hassle." 
Yes it is realistic.
Strollers are allowed in the hall and I know that you think that allowed doesn't mean that they should be there. But until they're banned it is what it is. Keep your head on a swivel, maintain awareness of where you're going.
Regarding taking responsibility for causing hassle, every single living being in the exhibit hall is causing hassle. Parents with children in strollers are not causing a problem.  

At this point it is obvious that you don't care if you are causing a hassle for everyone around you, you just expect that everyone around you will automatically accommodate you so YOU aren't being hassled.This is why we need an etiquette thread.
Being a person in the hall is not the same as being a person pushing a rolling obstruction in the hall. 
What is even worse is that you will likely be bringing an oversized stroller to accommodate two kids and all of their supplies. Come on, seriously? You don't see this causing a problem for other people? Aisles full of other people?

Wow, and now we're resorting to personal attacks (you don't care.) To reiterate one more time I attend alone and do not have a stroller, but I do not care if anyone else does. In fact I welcome them because they're bringing in the next generation of roleplaying/board gaming/miniatures/etc.  You said that you've been attending for 28 years and that's great. I don't feel the need to compare the size of our... attendance. We're not going to agree so let's just let it go.  

You are correct, I made a mistake and confused you with someone else. Sorry about that.

Not comparing attendance. I simply assume that if you have been in the hall at least once you know what you are in for. The attendance was to show that if I am getting knocked around chances are pretty good that a stroller is in danger of being knocked around.

Posted by garhkal tdb 8 years agoon 6/7/2017 at 4:31 AM
#90

tdb wrote:
garhkal wrote:
saburch wrote:In a lot of those cases the installation of the ashtrays predates the institution of the smoking near entryways ban.  

Then wouldn't it make sense to remove them?  OR move them to where they ARE the mandated 8ft away from the doors?

Sadly, a lot of smokers would still stand by the door and just throw their butts on the ground.  Like a lot of them already do...  Which brings up another etiquette rule: Smokers, put the butts in an ashtray!  And make sure they're actually out!

True, some are douches in that manner.  Even if i DO toss it on the floor, its just the "cherry" part.  I keep the filter part and toss THAT in the trash..
saburch wrote:I am not familiar with the ashtrays at the ICC, but a lot of similar buildings have ashtrays that are cemented into the ground.  It's not cheap to remove them.

That is true, often they ARE physically put into the wall..
brooks wrote:
"It is not realistic to expect every person subjected to the hassles of strollers in the aisles to just automatically be like "fine, whatever". Take some responsibility for causing the hassle." 
Yes it is realistic.
Strollers are allowed in the hall and I know that you think that allowed doesn't mean that they should be there.
 

Brooks.  Just cause it's allowed, doesn't give carte blanche to parents to use them as battering rams, and everyone else needs to just 'suck it up' (and yes i have had parents say that to my face, right after slamming a 3 baby stroller right INTO my calf/shin/knees.  Or as one woman did when i was down on a knee, re-putting on my shoe after another woman stepped on my heel removed it, BASHED me in the head with her stroller, then looked at ME as if I was the one at fault...

And its not just strollers.  Little kids as we all know, CAN be terrors.. I've lost count of the # of times a kid has ran up to me, and PUNCHED Me then ran off giggling.  yes his punch is not that harmful, but its STILL bloody disrespectful to expect me (or any one else) to just 'have to live with it"..

Posted by hoppities garhkal 8 years agoon 6/7/2017 at 10:48 AM
#91

 

I commented in anger after just waking up...bad idea. I'm out.

Posted by ryric 8 years agoon 6/7/2017 at 12:49 PM
#92

This is an amazing amount of hostility for an etiquette thread. I don't think we need to start a Gen Con chapter of SSCCATAGAPP. From my point of view, the overall point is, if you have some reason that your personal cross section is bigger than normal, be it from bag, backpack, costume, stroller, service animal, whatever, please just be aware of that fact. If everyone is trying to be considerate of others the con is better for all. Everyone has the right to be there, but even completely unencumbered people should strive to be aware of their surroundings and stay out of others' way. I myself spend a lot of time trying to find an unobtrusive spot to wait why my wife looks at things I don't care about.

Personally, I've been hit by more suddenly swung giant backpacks than anything else.

Posted by stiehle ryric 8 years agoon 6/7/2017 at 1:05 PM
#93

ryric wrote:
This is an amazing amount of hostility for an etiquette thread. I don't think we need to start a Gen Con chapter of SSCCATAGAPP. From my point of view, the overall point is, if you have some reason that your personal cross section is bigger than normal, be it from bag, backpack, costume, stroller, service animal, whatever, please just be aware of that fact. If everyone is trying to be considerate of others the con is better for all. Everyone has the right to be there, but even completely unencumbered people should strive to be aware of their surroundings and stay out of others' way. I myself spend a lot of time trying to find an unobtrusive spot to wait why my wife looks at things I don't care about.
Personally, I've been hit by more suddenly swung giant backpacks than anything else.

Heh, yeah the first page or two is actually full of some good tips, especially for first-timers like myself who can only benefit from the wisdom passed down by others who have attended these cons.  I'm not surely I can fully appreciate the enormity of the crowds until I actually see them, but at least I'm forwarned.  Also, I'd been planning to bring a backpack, but after seeing some of the advice I'm going to get an over the shoulder laptop bag instead so I can keep it close to my side rather than across my back.

Unfortunately, this once-helpful thread has kinda taken a nasty turn along an angry side road...

Posted by bith 8 years agoon 6/7/2017 at 1:08 PM
#94

Fundamentally, nobody objects to being told "be aware of your possessions and space".  It crosses the line and turns nasty when the "etiquette" suggestion becomes "you know what, you just shouldn't come".

Which, is in essence, what telling a parent with a toddler / infant to not bring a stroller is. 

Posted by roanders 8 years agoon 6/7/2017 at 4:07 PM
#95

How about a stroller check (or at least parking) area on Sunday?  I'd gladly pay a few dollars to be able to check my stroller while I go through the exhibit hall.  

At the very least, maybe they could rope off a stroller parking area, with someone watching it to make sure someone suspicious doesn't mess with them?  I wouldn't be too nervous leaving a cheaper umbrella stroller somewhere like that.

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