General Etiquette Guidelines
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Posted by gharris austicke
#51

austicke wrote:
bushmaster wrote:
brooks wrote:... I'm willing to put up with as many strollers as there are in the exhibit hall if it makes a young parent's life a bit easier and allows them to enjoy the convention. 
Second that! 

Well said. Stroll away!

Thing is you don't speak for everyone, and strollers in the aisles has an effect on a LOT of people. People are also forgetting that after a few hours, not to mention days, of dealing with this will make a lot of people's opinions change pretty quickly. You many say "big deal now" but your tune may change when someone bumps you with a stroller, you almost trip over one, someone tries the run you down while shoving a stroller through a crowd, or you are being blocked by one that is just left in the aisle. Even if everyone else in the aisle doesn't care there is still a real safety issue for the kid in the stroller.

If we were going by the "a couple of people don't mind so it must be ok" scale I would also say that a few people also don't mind being hit by backpacks, having smokers block the exit doors, walking around people using the ashcans as tables in the intersections, having people be rude to them or make a snide comment, being held up by photography sessions in the aisles, or people being late or disruptive during games. All of this is still bad etiquette and there is no excuse for doing it.

Posted by brooks bith
#52

saburch wrote:
What designated stroller area?

There isn't one. I assume they just meant that if you have toddlers who want to run around in the Training Grounds that you should enter the hall from the doors immediately adjacent to it and not venture any farther into the hall with a stroller. 

Posted by gharris bith
#53

saburch wrote:
What designated stroller area?

The Training Grounds. It is an area specifically set up for strollers and small children and you do not have to go through the rest of the exhibit hall to get there.

Posted by gharris brooks
#54

brooks wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you that strollers are a huge inconvenience. I suppose I'm just willing to put up with them and disagree with you that they don't belong in the hall. I really do appreciate how articulately and politely you present your arguments and guess we'll just have to disagree on this point. 
 

It's cool that you disagree with me. We can still be friends! 

But you hit the nail right on the head- they are a huge inconvenience, and they are a huge inconvenience in a very high traffic area full of people who aren't always aware of their surroundings. Nobody can just expect people to be alright with that.

Posted by brooks gharris
#55

gharris wrote:
brooks wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you that strollers are a huge inconvenience. I suppose I'm just willing to put up with them and disagree with you that they don't belong in the hall. I really do appreciate how articulately and politely you present your arguments and guess we'll just have to disagree on this point. 

It's cool that you disagree with me. We can still be friends! But you hit the nail right on the head- they are a huge inconvenience, and they are a huge inconvenience in a very high traffic area full of people who aren't always aware of their surroundings. Nobody can just expect people to be alright with that.

Thanks for letting us still be friends! I get it that you hate strollers in the hall and understand where you're coming from, I'm just more of the opinion that the moment I set foot in the doors the entire experience will be a huge inconvenience... strollers, big rolling luggage, wheelchairs, people congregating at intersections and all that. Price of doing business I suppose. 

Posted by bith gharris
#56

1) Training Grounds is not a designated stroller area.  There is nothing in the description of it, and nothing posted by GenCon that even suggests it is a "designated stroller area".

2) The Family Fun pavilion is a portion of the exhibit hall that is oriented towards families.  If you have ever actually gone into it, a substantial number of the booths include toddler and infant games / toys / products.  The family fun pavilion is also distinct from the training grounds (It's all the way across the hall from it).

I don't know where anyone got the idea that strollers have a designated area they are allowed in, but that is not the case.  And, for a convention that is pretty expressly expanding in the direction of families, it would be pretty stupid for them to limit those very same families from the marquee attraction.

 

Posted by gharris bith
#57

saburch wrote:
1) Training Grounds is not a designated stroller area.  There is nothing in the description of it, and nothing posted by GenCon that even suggests it is a "designated stroller area".
2) The Family Fun pavilion is a portion of the exhibit hall that is oriented towards families.  If you have ever actually gone into it, a substantial number of the booths include toddler and infant games / toys / products.  The family fun pavilion is also distinct from the training grounds (It's all the way across the hall from it).
I don't know where anyone got the idea that strollers have a designated area they are allowed in, but that is not the case.  And, for a convention that is pretty expressly expanding in the direction of families, it would be pretty stupid for them to limit those very same families from the marquee attraction.
 

Well the Training Grounds is a designated area for toddlers and small learning to walk kids, aka kids who would need strollers. The Family Fun pavilion is distinct from the Training Grounds, and can also be accessed without going through the rest of the exhibit hall. This is also a special area set aside for little kids. 

Not that you are allowed to bring strollers into the rest of the exhibit hall just as you are allowed to be rude to people, not pay attention to where your backpack is when you are around other people, stop in the middle of the aisle for pictures, hold up games by showing up late, block the exits while you smoke, stop in the aisle to take pictures, not take a bath or change your clothes, be a sore loser when you lose, and use trash cans at intersections as tables. That does not make it ok.

Sorry, but if you are planning a vacation with very small kids who need a stroller part of being a good parent is realizing that you are restricted in what you really should be doing. Outside of the areas set aside for little kids the exhibit hall aisle are not a place for strollers. rather than saying "too bad, suck it up" to everyone else in the hall you should be looking into child care, taking turns in the hall with your spouse/family/friends/whoever you came with, visit a few booths while someone else watched the kids in the family areas, or just do what parents have done for generations- realize that little kids are not going to be able to do everything that you want to do on vacation and change YOUR plans accordingly. There is always next year, price of being a parent.

Posted by gharris brooks
#58

brooks wrote:
gharris wrote:
brooks wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you that strollers are a huge inconvenience. I suppose I'm just willing to put up with them and disagree with you that they don't belong in the hall. I really do appreciate how articulately and politely you present your arguments and guess we'll just have to disagree on this point. 

It's cool that you disagree with me. We can still be friends! But you hit the nail right on the head- they are a huge inconvenience, and they are a huge inconvenience in a very high traffic area full of people who aren't always aware of their surroundings. Nobody can just expect people to be alright with that.

Thanks for letting us still be friends! I get it that you hate strollers in the hall and understand where you're coming from, I'm just more of the opinion that the moment I set foot in the doors the entire experience will be a huge inconvenience... strollers, big rolling luggage, wheelchairs, people congregating at intersections and all that. Price of doing business I suppose. 

The nice thing about a good etiquette thread is that you can make people aware of these sorts of problems and hopefully make them less of a problem for everyone involved. There are just some things you shouldn't do. It's like rubberneckers- a lot of them are oblivious to the problems they are creating until you point out the mile of backed up cars full of people who are sick of sitting in traffic. You can't fix a problem if you never address it.

Posted by bith gharris
#59

gharris wrote:
saburch wrote:
1) Training Grounds is not a designated stroller area.  There is nothing in the description of it, and nothing posted by GenCon that even suggests it is a "designated stroller area".
2) The Family Fun pavilion is a portion of the exhibit hall that is oriented towards families.  If you have ever actually gone into it, a substantial number of the booths include toddler and infant games / toys / products.  The family fun pavilion is also distinct from the training grounds (It's all the way across the hall from it).
I don't know where anyone got the idea that strollers have a designated area they are allowed in, but that is not the case.  And, for a convention that is pretty expressly expanding in the direction of families, it would be pretty stupid for them to limit those very same families from the marquee attraction.

Note that you are allowed to bring strollers into the rest of the exhibit hall just as you are allowed to be rude to people, not pay attention to where your backpack is when you are around other people, stop in the middle of the aisle for pictures, hold up games by showing up late, block the exits while you smoke, stop in the aisle to take pictures, not take a bath or change your clothes, be a sore loser when you lose, and use trash cans at intersections as tables. That does not make it ok.

I mean, I get it "kids don't belong here" and all that.  But thats Bull, and I'll call it every time I see it.

GenCon is actively trying to be more attractive to families, and families with young kids are part of that effort.  It is not poor etiquette, or rude, for families with strollers to be in the dealer hall any more than it would be for someone in a wheelchair, or on crutches, or with a walker, to be in the dealer hall. 

 

Posted by brooks gharris
#60


Sorry, but if you are planning a vacation with very small kids who need a stroller part of being a good parent is realizing that you are restricted in what you really should be doing. Outside of the areas set aside for little kids the exhibit hall aisle are not a place for strollers. rather than saying "too bad, suck it up" to everyone else in the hall you should be looking into child care, taking turns in the hall with your spouse/family/friends/whoever you came with, visit a few booths while someone else watched the kids in the family areas, or just do what parents have done for generations- realize that little kids are not going to be able to do everything that you want to do on vacation and change YOUR plans accordingly. There is always next year, price of being a parent.

I would be very cautious about telling parents what is necessary for being a good parent. I would also be even more cautious about telling parents how to manage their children. I understand that you hate strollers in the exhibit hall, but until GenCon tells them they are prohibited in the exhibit hall they're welcome to be there just like anyone else with a badge. 

Good etiquette is also placing the wellbeing of others before your own. 

Posted by gharris bith
#61

saburch wrote:
gharris wrote:
saburch wrote:
1) Training Grounds is not a designated stroller area.  There is nothing in the description of it, and nothing posted by GenCon that even suggests it is a "designated stroller area".
2) The Family Fun pavilion is a portion of the exhibit hall that is oriented towards families.  If you have ever actually gone into it, a substantial number of the booths include toddler and infant games / toys / products.  The family fun pavilion is also distinct from the training grounds (It's all the way across the hall from it).
I don't know where anyone got the idea that strollers have a designated area they are allowed in, but that is not the case.  And, for a convention that is pretty expressly expanding in the direction of families, it would be pretty stupid for them to limit those very same families from the marquee attraction.

Note that you are allowed to bring strollers into the rest of the exhibit hall just as you are allowed to be rude to people, not pay attention to where your backpack is when you are around other people, stop in the middle of the aisle for pictures, hold up games by showing up late, block the exits while you smoke, stop in the aisle to take pictures, not take a bath or change your clothes, be a sore loser when you lose, and use trash cans at intersections as tables. That does not make it ok.

I mean, I get it "kids don't belong here" and all that.  But thats Bull, and I'll call it every time I see it.GenCon is actively trying to be more attractive to families, and families with young kids are part of that effort.  It is not poor etiquette, or rude, for families with strollers to be in the dealer hall any more than it would be for someone in a wheelchair, or on crutches, or with a walker, to be in the dealer hall. 
 

You are falsely equating people with disabilities with people using strollers. People CHOOSE to use strollers. Not the same thing at all.

Also, as I have pointed out, there is a LOT to Gen Con that is not the exhibit hall, there are sections of the hall that are specially set aside for little kids, there is a spa program full of activities for kids, and there are plenty of games outside of the exhibit hall that you love to see a youngster in a stroller. 

Make no mistake, you are CHOOSING to disrupt traffic and put your children in a questionable setting when you try to bring a stroller down the aisles of the exhibit hall.

Gen Con is not just about the dealer hall. That is a small part of the overall show. besides the rest of the convention center there is an entire stadium and several hotels worth of things to do that are more appropriate for kids in strollers.

Posted by gharris brooks
#62

brooks wrote:

Sorry, but if you are planning a vacation with very small kids who need a stroller part of being a good parent is realizing that you are restricted in what you really should be doing. Outside of the areas set aside for little kids the exhibit hall aisle are not a place for strollers. rather than saying "too bad, suck it up" to everyone else in the hall you should be looking into child care, taking turns in the hall with your spouse/family/friends/whoever you came with, visit a few booths while someone else watched the kids in the family areas, or just do what parents have done for generations- realize that little kids are not going to be able to do everything that you want to do on vacation and change YOUR plans accordingly. There is always next year, price of being a parent.

I would be very cautious about telling parents what is necessary for being a good parent. I would also be even more cautious about telling parents how to manage their children. I understand that you hate strollers in the exhibit hall, but until GenCon tells them they are prohibited in the exhibit hall they're welcome to be there just like anyone else with a badge. Good etiquette is also placing the wellbeing of others before your own. 
 
As I pointed out pretty much everything else mentioned in this thread also aren't technically prohibited but you still shouldn't do them. People don't get a free pass just because they are parents- a lot of horrible parents thrive on the notion of "Don't tell me how to raise my child!" (not that I am accusing anyone here of doing that)

You again hit the nail right on the head- placing the wellbeing of others before your own is the hallmark of good manners. Bringing a stroller into the exhibit hall aisles is creating a potential hazard for your child and an obstruction to everyone else, you are sacrificing their wellbeing for your own. By definition that is bad etiquette.

Posted by brooks gharris
#63

gharris wrote:
brooks wrote:

Sorry, but if you are planning a vacation with very small kids who need a stroller part of being a good parent is realizing that you are restricted in what you really should be doing. Outside of the areas set aside for little kids the exhibit hall aisle are not a place for strollers. rather than saying "too bad, suck it up" to everyone else in the hall you should be looking into child care, taking turns in the hall with your spouse/family/friends/whoever you came with, visit a few booths while someone else watched the kids in the family areas, or just do what parents have done for generations- realize that little kids are not going to be able to do everything that you want to do on vacation and change YOUR plans accordingly. There is always next year, price of being a parent.

I would be very cautious about telling parents what is necessary for being a good parent. I would also be even more cautious about telling parents how to manage their children. I understand that you hate strollers in the exhibit hall, but until GenCon tells them they are prohibited in the exhibit hall they're welcome to be there just like anyone else with a badge. Good etiquette is also placing the wellbeing of others before your own. 
 
As I pointed out pretty much everything else mentioned in this thread also aren't technically prohibited but you still shouldn't do them. People don't get a free pass just because they are parents- a lot of horrible parents thrive on the notion of "Don't tell me how to raise my child!" (not that I am accusing anyone here of doing that)You again hit the nail right on the head- placing the wellbeing of others before your own is the hallmark of good manners. Bringing a stroller into the exhibit hall aisles is creating a potential hazard for your child and an obstruction to everyone else, you are sacrificing their wellbeing for your own. By definition that is bad etiquette.

Okay... cite me an example of when a child has been hurt in the exhibit hall from being in a stroller. Something that showed up in the local Indy papers or television stations or radio stations or whatever. Or even cite me an example of when a child was traumatized by being in the exhibit hall. 

And yes there are horrible parents in the world, but it's not our responsibility to tell them how to raise their kids. No one has a right or a responsibility to tell someone what to do with their child. If you see a situation wherein a child is in that much in danger, alert the authorities.

Finally by your agreement that good etiquette is sacrificing something for the wellbeing of others, I just don't get why you are so against strollers. Shouldn't you, as a practitioner of good etiquette, whenever you see a stroller and recognizing that the young parent has a lot more challenges in the hall then you do, step aside, smile and wish them a good convention?

Posted by ryanjamison brooks
#64

brooks wrote:
Okay... cite me an example of when a child has been hurt in the exhibit hall from being in a stroller. Something that showed up in the local Indy papers or television stations or radio stations or whatever. Or even cite me an example of when a child was traumatized by being in the exhibit hall. And yes there are horrible parents in the world, but it's not our responsibility to tell them how to raise their kids. No one has a right or a responsibility to tell someone what to do with their child. If you see a situation wherein a child is in that much in danger, alert the authorities.
Finally by your agreement that good etiquette is sacrificing something for the wellbeing of others, I just don't get why you are so against strollers. Shouldn't you, as a practitioner of good etiquette, whenever you see a stroller and recognizing that the young parent has a lot more challenges in the hall then you do, step aside, smile and wish them a good convention?

As far as I can see, gharris isn't saying people with strollers are bad parents, or telling them how to raise their kids, just that they're being inconsiderate to other attendees. Playing devil's advocate here, strollers make carting the kids around easier, but then it makes getting around the isles for everyone else more difficult. Just like carting around big bags of games is easier than taking them back to your hotel room, but you shouldn't do it in the exhibit hall.

Sure, you can just not care about it, but then that goes for literally everything people are mentioning in this thread. It's the etiquette thread, not the vigilante justice thread. You're free to do what you want, people are just mentioning what you shouldn't do because it inconveniences others. gharris isn't doing anything to the stroller people.

Posted by njseahawksfan gharris
#65

gharris wrote:


You are falsely equating people with disabilities with people using strollers. People CHOOSE to use strollers. Not the same thing at all.Also, as I have pointed out, there is a LOT to Gen Con that is not the exhibit hall, there are sections of the hall that are specially set aside for little kids, there is a spa program full of activities for kids, and there are plenty of games outside of the exhibit hall that you love to see a youngster in a stroller. 
Make no mistake, you are CHOOSING to disrupt traffic and put your children in a questionable setting when you try to bring a stroller down the aisles of the exhibit hall.
Gen Con is not just about the dealer hall. That is a small part of the overall show. besides the rest of the convention center there is an entire stadium and several hotels worth of things to do that are more appropriate for kids in strollers.

Man, I have no idea what kind of convention you think GenCon is if you think the dealer hall is a "questionable setting" for children.  There are *literally* entire areas of the dealer hall devoted to children and children's games.

EDIT - Here's a link to the dealer hall map for this year.  Note the area labeled "Family Fun Pavilion"

https://www.gencon.com/map?lt=8.809082353052137&lg=45.13183593750001&z=5&f=1&c=13
 

Posted by brooks ryanjamison
#66


As far as I can see, gharris isn't saying people with strollers are bad parents, or telling them how to raise their kids, just that they're being inconsiderate to other attendees. Playing devil's advocate here, strollers make carting the kids around easier, but then it makes getting around the isles for everyone else more difficult. Just like carting around big bags of games is easier than taking them back to your hotel room, but you shouldn't do it in the exhibit hall.Sure, you can just not care about it, but then that goes for literally everything people are mentioning in this thread. It's the etiquette thread, not the vigilante justice thread. You're free to do what you want, people are just mentioning what you shouldn't do because it inconveniences others. gharris isn't doing anything to the stroller people.

I would respectfully disagree as he specifically illustrates what is a good parent: "Sorry, but if you are planning a vacation with very small kids who need a stroller part of being a good parent is realizing that you are restricted in what you really should be doing."

There are also instructions for parents on how to conduct their children: "you should be looking into child care, taking turns in the hall with your spouse/family/friends/whoever you came with, visit a few booths while someone else watched the kids in the family areas, or just do what parents have done for generations- realize that little kids are not going to be able to do everything that you want to do on vacation and change YOUR plans accordingly. There is always next year, price of being a parent."

Posted by garhkal bith
#67

saburch wrote:In a lot of those cases the installation of the ashtrays predates the institution of the smoking near entryways ban.  

Then wouldn't it make sense to remove them?  OR move them to where they ARE the mandated 8ft away from the doors?

Posted by tdb garhkal
#68

garhkal wrote:
saburch wrote:In a lot of those cases the installation of the ashtrays predates the institution of the smoking near entryways ban.  

Then wouldn't it make sense to remove them?  OR move them to where they ARE the mandated 8ft away from the doors?

Sadly, a lot of smokers would still stand by the door and just throw their butts on the ground.  Like a lot of them already do...  Which brings up another etiquette rule: Smokers, put the butts in an ashtray!  And make sure they're actually out!

Posted by hoppities
#69

Honestly, I get that strollers are an inconvenience in the exhibition hall, but come on. As a father of two little boys, you definitely want a stroller over the other stuff. Now, I don't bring my kids to Gencon yet, but they've been to plenty of other large events with big crowds.

How else do you expect me to carry around everything I need for them? Little kids need snacks, diapers, wipes, changing pads, water/formula/milk/juice. How about the books or small toys that tend to travel with little kids? There's usually a blanket or two if it's going to extend around or near nap time, or the lighting is crazy bright for the baby. Let's not forget that you also need extra clothes because who knows when the 5 month old will explode or the two year old will decide that his PB&J works better as a paint set for his shirt than as lunch.

You might as well tell parents they're banned from the hall. Granted, I'm not going to bring a double jogger, but strollers are wonderful and almost necessary for long days out.

Just put up with it so that young parents who bring their kids can enjoy the con.

For a community that tends to be extremely supportive, I'm shocked by the lack of support for families with young children that I've seen here.

Posted by bith garhkal
#70

garhkal wrote:
saburch wrote:In a lot of those cases the installation of the ashtrays predates the institution of the smoking near entryways ban.  

Then wouldn't it make sense to remove them?  OR move them to where they ARE the mandated 8ft away from the doors?
I am not familiar with the ashtrays at the ICC, but a lot of similar buildings have ashtrays that are cemented into the ground.  It's not cheap to remove them.

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