Gen Con renews contract
2 3 4 6 8
2 3 4 6 8
Posted by scswan

Sorry but I have to disagree about Chicago. There is only one hotel connected to McCormick place and it's the Hyatt Regency with 1,258 rooms. That's it. There are a couple maybe less than a mile but all the "convention" hotels are about a mile or more away. 
Cheaper rooms than Indy? Looks like it. Did a quick search for hotel rooms for the MidWinter Dental show coming up. I was surprised to see the prices range from $109 to $159 a night for most hotels. Of course the connected hotel was $200. 
Restaurants? Nothing really close. Not the dozens you can walk to at Indy. 
Indy is a walkers convention. Once parked downtown you can easy walk to just about anything. Chicago not so. The hotels and restaurants are at least a mile or two away. McCormick Place is a destination. You drive or are driven there. Then you drive to a restaurant and another drive to the hotel. 
Could you walk? Sure but its not recommended. 
I haven't been to a convention in Vegas or Atlanta so I have no opinion about them. But can we please stop talking about Chicago? Anyone who lives in Chicago and has been to Indy will tell you Chicago won't work. I'll believe Fred about Denver but please believe me about Chicago.
Steve

Posted by aaronmlopez

If hotel rooms were the only concern, I would suggest Myrtle Beach, SC. With the timing of the convention, most of the area would be getting ready to shut down as the main vacation time for the area is about over. The area would welcome 60k plus people. Unfortunately, there is not a convention center there large enough, though there would be more than ample dining choices and more than ample hotel space. 

In the end, I think Indianapolis is the best choice and best place for Gen Con for the foreseeable future. As someone mentioned, the competition for the Con attendees money would be too great at Vegas, and there just are not enough connected/close hotel rooms/dining choices in any other city that I can think of. 

Posted by andrewj.rager felwred

felwred wrote:
The issue is GenCon cannot expand any further in Indianapolis. That means pricing has to be increased pretty substantially to fix some of the current problems. Hotel costs are already well higher than Vegas, Orlando, Atlanta, or Chicago (comparing room blocks for similar events).
If you had a pimp walk up to you in Vegas you were far off the strip into nude dancer territory. I go to Vegas at least twice per year for work. I've never had anything like that happen. The worst I've had happen is wandering into areas with lots of people smoking (something that is going away there). There is a reason more business conventions are there than anywhere else in the world. It is reliable, convenient, and cost effective. I've had room blocks for conferences in Vegas at Caesar's palace for nice rooms between $99 and $150/night. You can stay at most on-strip resorts for under $150/night. The reason is the available number of rooms is more than ten times what you have in Indy. Flights are subsidized so the costs would be lower there as well for virtually all flights.
Chicago has a much bigger convention center but does have a hotel problem. McCormick does have attached hotels (I've stayed in them before) but it caps out at something like 30K-40K people of attached hotels. Past that, you are looking at having to travel in a mile or so meaning it would be similar to Indy on hotels but you would have ample public transportation.
Orlando has a bigger convention center as well and substantially more hotel space. It's problem is timing. With GenCon happening during summer vacation, they would be competing for hotel space with summer family vacations at DisneyWorld.
Atlanta could be a good sneaky option. They have a bigger center and more hotel space (DragonCon is handled really well for a convention slightly bigger than GenCon).
Going full east coast means more west coast people wouldn't come, though. The same is true of going too far west to LA, San Diego, etc..
Denver doesn't have enough hotel space (I live here) and the convention center is only slightly larger than Indy.
Detroit has smaller convention space and is in terrible shape (the convention center). It would be inexpensive, though. Public transit isn't reliable so all hotels would have to be near the center (there aren't enough there for that).
New Orleans would be harder to get to than most places and would be more expensive. They do have the space and hotels, though. (And having great Cajun food would be a big plus!)
Austin would be fun but their convention space is smaller and less hotels than Indy.
That pretty much leaves Chicago and Atlanta. I'd support either of those or closing admission to GenCon at 40,000 or so and increasing all the prices to allow for a better overall experience (ample hotels, enough space for games without it being deafening, etc.)
I'd say Vegas #1, Chicago #2, then Atlanta #3.
Fred
As much as I would personally like to have Gen Con in Detroit for the closeness. Detroit does have the people mover that is connected to Cobo. I'm not sure how many hotels have access to the people mover however. I feel like Cobo is pretty big, but I am not sure on the amount of space vs ICC. Even so, I think you are right, Detroit is not an option. I would also agree to eliminate anything to far east or west. I feel like flying restricts the amount you can purchase at Gen Con.

Posted by jobeth66

Yeah, driving distance makes a huge difference on purchases.  We're a 10 hour drive door-to-door.  It's a long day, but it lets me optimize my spending (and it also lets me bring my cosplay and my beer.  :) )

Flying?  Not so much - I'd seriously have to consider my attendance if I had to fly.

Posted by ryric squirecam

squirecam wrote:
garhkal wrote:
rutherfordr wrote:
felwred wrote:
Vegas has become more of a family town and a town for businessmen so the location doesn't present problems.

... except for the pimps on the street at night who hand out business cards with pictures of nude prostitutes to passersby.Moving to Las Vegas would kill GenCon. I wouldn't take my kids there.

I've known quite a few people who vaca'ed in vegas, who never had that happen... 
Yeah this is simple haterade.Vegas is not remotely like it was in the 50's-90's. I get it that people like Indy. I live in Vegas and I'd rather it stay in Indy, assuming the hotel and public transport issues get fixed.
But slandering Vegas as not family friendly these days is simply wrong. Yes, people gamble. Take your moral outrage about it elsewhere. Vegas has the necesssary hotel space and public infrastructure. Much more important than your kid seeing a slot machine.
My wife and I were in Vegas this past October(2016), and we managed to end up with a few dozen little naked woman flyer/cards just from walking on the strip after 7 PM. We joked about beefing up our "Las Vegas trading card" collection. I don't think the cards are technically for prostitution but they do generally feature topless women and phone numbers. Near as I can tell, whatever service employs these women pays some poor minimum wage person to stand around the strip for hours passing them out. But yes, you can get ads for sex shows in busy tourist areas on the strip in 2016.

Posted by aldctjoc scswan

scswan wrote:
Sorry but I have to disagree about Chicago. There is only one hotel connected to McCormick place and it's the Hyatt Regency with 1,258 rooms. That's it. There are a couple maybe less than a mile but all the "convention" hotels are about a mile or more away. 
Cheaper rooms than Indy? Looks like it. Did a quick search for hotel rooms for the MidWinter Dental show coming up. I was surprised to see the prices range from $109 to $159 a night for most hotels. Of course the connected hotel was $200. 
Restaurants? Nothing really close. Not the dozens you can walk to at Indy. 
Indy is a walkers convention. Once parked downtown you can easy walk to just about anything. Chicago not so. The hotels and restaurants are at least a mile or two away. McCormick Place is a destination. You drive or are driven there. Then you drive to a restaurant and another drive to the hotel. 
Could you walk? Sure but its not recommended. 
I haven't been to a convention in Vegas or Atlanta so I have no opinion about them. But can we please stop talking about Chicago? Anyone who lives in Chicago and has been to Indy will tell you Chicago won't work. I'll believe Fred about Denver but please believe me about Chicago.
Steve

I'll jump in on this. I don't live in Chicago, but I've been there a heck of a lot both for family who lives there, friends, and separately for professional reasons across several different jobs. And I have to agree rather strongly with scswan here: Gen Con wouldn't work there. Or at least it'd become unrecognizable, and not in a good way.

Yeah, Chicago already handles some large conferences. C2E2 is held at McCormick Place, in fact, and seems to boast similar numbers. There's also Wizard World, although that's up in Rosemont. But still, in Chicago - whether at McCormick, at Stephens Convention Center up in Rosemont, or wherever - I really feel the con would suddenly "shrink" down to just being a convention-center only sort of event. Gen Con would be there and there alone, and basically nowhere else in that city. Part of the reason for that would be the fact that there wouldn't be as many hotels nearby, therefore it'd be hard to match the same atmosphere all around the general area. And another part of it would likely be the lack of similar welcoming by the various businesses. They'd be damn friendly and nice, don't get me wrong - in fact, I love the heck out of visiting Chicago, at least when it isn't winter - but the Gen Con crowd would just be another customer in a long line of them. Whereas Gen Con in Indy is THE convention downtown, and gets embraced in a very unique way for the city. I'd hazard a guess that it's similar to how San Diego is with SDCC, although I admit to merely guessing since I've never been to that. Regardless, the difference would be between an atmosphere permeating the immediate area to the hotels and restaurants nearby as opposed to one that's mostly contained in the convention center. 

Indy really does the convention well. I have to use the word "permeate" again because it's so applicable. I actually compare the Gencon vibe to when the Indianapolis 500 rolls around, and also years ago to when Indiana's high schools had a single class basketball tournament. At least it feels that way downtown. The only other similar pervading feel Indy had was for their last Super Bowl, and that was a one-off. When you consider the other large events Indianapolis hosts - NASCAR's Brickyard 400, the NFL draft combine, the Future Farmers of America convention - then see how well Gen Con is regarded in comparison to those other well regarded events, I think you get the idea. Yeah, some of those are bigger in either attendance (400,000+ for the 500) or national stature (the NFL stuff, the NASCAR race), but Gen Con ranks. Put it in Chicago - or Vegas - and I don't think you'll get the same regard from the city, regardless of how friendly the businesses and residents would be.

I think people would be hard pressed to find a city that would embrace Gen Con the way Indy does, or the way San Diego embraces SDCC. And as much as I like Chicago, I simply don't see them regarding Gen Con as anything other than another badge on the city's lapel. 

Posted by squirecam jobeth66

jobeth66 wrote:
Yeah, driving distance makes a huge difference on purchases.  We're a 10 hour drive door-to-door.  It's a long day, but it lets me optimize my spending (and it also lets me bring my cosplay and my beer.  :) )
Flying?  Not so much - I'd seriously have to consider my attendance if I had to fly.

It might be better for you as an individual, but cheaper and available hotel space benefits everyone. People need to focus on whats better for all vs whats better just for them. Gen con has issues that do need to be addressed.

Posted by garhkal jobeth66

jobeth66 wrote:
Yeah, driving distance makes a huge difference on purchases.  We're a 10 hour drive door-to-door.  It's a long day, but it lets me optimize my spending (and it also lets me bring my cosplay and my beer.  :) )
Flying?  Not so much - I'd seriously have to consider my attendance if I had to fly.

While i much prefer to drive as well, i don't think having to fly in would stop me coming...

Posted by rhone1

I'm really surprised how much attention this thread gets...every year.

I guess many of us are looking for something to talk about?  Hotel rooms, or lack thereof, seems to be something to get people interested.  Some people keep suggesting the Con needs to move to handle the demand of more con-goers and we all seem to agree that staying downtown is better than staying out by the airport.  Anything else I'm missing?

Posted by jobeth66 garhkal

garhkal wrote:
jobeth66 wrote:
Yeah, driving distance makes a huge difference on purchases.  We're a 10 hour drive door-to-door.  It's a long day, but it lets me optimize my spending (and it also lets me bring my cosplay and my beer.  :) )
Flying?  Not so much - I'd seriously have to consider my attendance if I had to fly.

While i much prefer to drive as well, i don't think having to fly in would stop me coming...

Stop me coming?  No.  Stop me purchasing as much from on-site vendors?  Absolutely.

Posted by jobeth66 squirecam

squirecam wrote:
jobeth66 wrote:
Yeah, driving distance makes a huge difference on purchases.  We're a 10 hour drive door-to-door.  It's a long day, but it lets me optimize my spending (and it also lets me bring my cosplay and my beer.  :) )
Flying?  Not so much - I'd seriously have to consider my attendance if I had to fly.

It might be better for you as an individual, but cheaper and available hotel space benefits everyone. People need to focus on whats better for all vs whats better just for them. Gen con has issues that do need to be addressed.

Wouldn't guarantee cheaper for everyone within a 5-10 minutes walking distance of the convention center.  That's what we're talking about.  If you have to take a cab, it's no different than taking a cab/Uber in Indianapolis.  Cheap hotels 10-20 minutes drive out from the ICC are easy to find, too.  So how is that different? 

And heck, depending on where the con would be held in Vegas, it could take 15-20 minutes to walk from your hotel room in the Con hotel to the floor.  BTDT.
 

Posted by bugwar squirecam

squirecam wrote:
 
People need to focus on whats better for all vs whats better just for them. Gen con has issues that do need to be addressed.
Nah.
It's a game convention, not a social crusade.

Personal entertainment shouldn't be in the baliwick of social justice warriors.

Posted by roderick bugwar

bugwar wrote:
squirecam wrote:
 
People need to focus on whats better for all vs whats better just for them. Gen con has issues that do need to be addressed.
Nah.
It's a game convention, not a social crusade.Personal entertainment shouldn't be in the baliwick of social justice warriors.

Please be careful about throwing around loaded terms like "Social Justice Warrior" - to some it is an insult, to others a badge of honor, and you never know how your audience will take it.

Roderick Robertson
Forum Coordinator; Gen Con, LLC.

 

Posted by squirecam jobeth66

jobeth66 wrote:
squirecam wrote:
jobeth66 wrote:
Yeah, driving distance makes a huge difference on purchases.  We're a 10 hour drive door-to-door.  It's a long day, but it lets me optimize my spending (and it also lets me bring my cosplay and my beer.  :) )
Flying?  Not so much - I'd seriously have to consider my attendance if I had to fly.

It might be better for you as an individual, but cheaper and available hotel space benefits everyone. People need to focus on whats better for all vs whats better just for them. Gen con has issues that do need to be addressed.

Wouldn't guarantee cheaper for everyone within a 5-10 minutes walking distance of the convention center.  That's what we're talking about.  If you have to take a cab, it's no different than taking a cab/Uber in Indianapolis.  Cheap hotels 10-20 minutes drive out from the ICC are easy to find, too.  So how is that different? And heck, depending on where the con would be held in Vegas, it could take 15-20 minutes to walk from your hotel room in the Con hotel to the floor.  BTDT.
 
Depending on the location, you could have a short walk or even a monorail.

There is a big difference from being downtown and being 20 minutes away with limited public transport. You cannot come and go from the convention, and the taxi rides (or parking) becomes time consuming and more expensive.

Any hotel in Vegas would be near a monorail station, or the hotel would provide shuttles. The taxi ride would be shorter too.
 

Posted by jobeth66 squirecam

squirecam wrote:
jobeth66 wrote:
squirecam wrote:
jobeth66 wrote:
Yeah, driving distance makes a huge difference on purchases.  We're a 10 hour drive door-to-door.  It's a long day, but it lets me optimize my spending (and it also lets me bring my cosplay and my beer.  :) )
Flying?  Not so much - I'd seriously have to consider my attendance if I had to fly.

It might be better for you as an individual, but cheaper and available hotel space benefits everyone. People need to focus on whats better for all vs whats better just for them. Gen con has issues that do need to be addressed.

Wouldn't guarantee cheaper for everyone within a 5-10 minutes walking distance of the convention center.  That's what we're talking about.  If you have to take a cab, it's no different than taking a cab/Uber in Indianapolis.  Cheap hotels 10-20 minutes drive out from the ICC are easy to find, too.  So how is that different? And heck, depending on where the con would be held in Vegas, it could take 15-20 minutes to walk from your hotel room in the Con hotel to the floor.  BTDT.
Depending on the location, you could have a short walk or even a monorail.There is a big difference from being downtown and being 20 minutes away with limited public transport. You cannot come and go from the convention, and the taxi rides (or parking) becomes time consuming and more expensive.
Any hotel in Vegas would be near a monorail station, or the hotel would provide shuttles. The taxi ride would be shorter too.
 

We'll have to agree to disagree.  And with all the hotels getting rid of free parking, that's going to drive up costs in Vegas as well.  I can get from Southport to the ICC in less than 15 minutes.  I can't get from the Bellagio to Venetian in 15 minutes by cab.  The hotels won't provide free shuttles, I've never seen that for the conventions we've been there to attend unless the /convention/ planners are paying for them.  I don't see that happening.  And the monorail isn't necessarily convenient either, and it's definitely not fast.  And yes, depending on the location you could have a short walk.  I have a short walk now - I've got a room reserved at the Homewood Suites 2 blocks from the ICC.  Many people have short walks.  Many other people are going to have to drive, cab, or uber - no different in Indy than in Las Vegas, except that Indy is more centrally located for more attendees.  If you're in a hotel off-strip (which would be cheaper - but cheaper than the further away hotels in Indy?  Unlikely.), the only option is a cab or to drive.  So again, I'm not seeing where Vegas is a huge plus for more people. 

As an example, the AAPA conference from May 14-17 has rooms at connected hotels (Mandalay Bay/Delano) for $219 or $255/night - no cheaper than GenCon, those are block pricing.  And note those dates.  That's Sun-Wed nights.  Try getting rooms on the strip that cheap on Fri/Sat/Sun.

For example - check out the rates for CES, which is 4 days covering a weekend.  Local dorms (8 people to a room) are going for $150+ a night.  Not within walking distance.  Now, CES is twice the size of GenCon so will command a higher price tag, but not exponentially so.  (From the Las Vegas Review-Journal:  "CES delegates paid an average $323.50 a night during the convention that ran Wednesday through Saturday — most delegates checked out after Friday night. That total is an average from 30 properties.
But for the 2017 convention during which delegates would likely spend Friday and Saturday night and check out Sunday, the average rate for the same 30 properties is $350.47 a night.")

Not seeing where Vegas would be cheaper for a large convention, at all.

Posted by mhayward1978 jobeth66

jobeth66 wrote:
[/forums/22-general-info-2017/topics/6739-gen-con-renews-contract?page=6#21458ined][/url]
Not seeing where Vegas would be cheaper for a large convention, at all.

Curse your facts and logic!  

Seriously - the idea that people thing Las Vegas could be cheaper than Indianapolis just shows they aren't familiar with the two locations.  

"Any hotel in Vegas would be near a monorail station" - Lol!  The monorail doesn't even cover the whole strip, let alone all casinos, let alone all hotels.  For example, the Rio is 5 miles from the monorail.  

Several strip hotels would give you a 10+ minute walk to the monorail station.  

It's a 20 minute walk from Mandalay Bay to the nearest monorail station. In Las Vegas. In August.  Where the average high temperature is 103 F.

Oh - also - the monorail isn't free - $12 a day.  

I get that Indy has issues.  However if you evaluate the following criteria:

1. Convention center space capable of hosting GenCon's floor space - about 600,000 square feet.

2. 4,700 connected, walkable hotel rooms

3. 49% of US population within 1 day drive https://info.siteselectiongroup.com/blog/top-20-metros-with-highest-percent-of-us-population-within-one-day-drive

4. General affordability of rooms, food, parking, fuel, etc..

I haven't seen any proposals that would be any better.

Las Vegas has enough con space, but essentially no connected, walkable hotels, costs more, is not as close to large population centers, and is also a hundred frigging degrees when Gen Con is on.

Most proposals of: "What about city X!" just seem to take it for granted that the city has comparable / superior amenities with regard to these criteria, without evidence.
 

Posted by jobeth66 mhayward1978

mhayward1978 wrote:
jobeth66 wrote:
[/forums/22-general-info-2017/topics/6739-gen-con-renews-contract?page=6#21461ined][/url]
Not seeing where Vegas would be cheaper for a large convention, at all.

Curse your facts and logic!  Seriously - the idea that people thing Las Vegas could be cheaper than Indianapolis just shows they aren't familiar with the two locations.  
"Any hotel in Vegas would be near a monorail station" - Lol!  The monorail doesn't even cover the whole strip, let alone all casinos, let alone all hotels.  For example, the Rio is 5 miles from the monorail.  
Several strip hotels would give you a 10+ minute walk to the monorail station.  
It's a 20 minute walk from Mandalay Bay to the nearest monorail station. In Las Vegas. In August.  Where the average high temperature is 103 F.
Oh - also - the monorail isn't free - $12 a day.  
I get that Indy has issues.  However if you evaluate the following criteria:
1. Convention center space capable of hosting GenCon's floor space - about 600,000 square feet.
2. 4,700 connected, walkable hotel rooms
3. 49% of US population within 1 day drive https://info.siteselectiongroup.com/blog/top-20-metros-with-highest-percent-of-us-population-within-one-day-drive
4. General affordability of rooms, food, parking, fuel, etc..
I haven't seen any proposals that would be any better.
Las Vegas has enough con space, but essentially no connected, walkable hotels, costs more, is not as close to large population centers, and is also a hundred frigging degrees when Gen Con is on.
Most proposals of: "What about city X!" just seem to take it for granted that the city has comparable / superior amenities with regard to these criteria, without evidence.
 

:)  Don't get me wrong - I LOVE Vegas.  Even in August when it's 100+ degrees out.  I've been there when it's 100+ degrees out and RAINING (I don't recommend it.  It's killer.)  I would go to Vegas all the time if I could.  But I don't see me, or really many people, walking 20-25 minutes down the strip in cosplay in 100+ temps.  And I tend to cosplay Steampunk, with boots and hats and heavy skirts.  No thank you.  Indy's bad enough - and my cosplay is one of the reasons I want a close-in hotel, there are days when by 1-2pm I need to go change.   In addition, for those that have kids (especially teens and tweens), are going to find a much better atmosphere in Indy than Vegas. 

When you put all the factors together, Vegas wouldn't be any cheaper (and may possibly be more significantly MORE expensive for a weekend), would be more inconvenient for more attendees, and absolutely does not have the atmosphere and friendliness that Indy has.  The businesses and locals treat us fantastically - that wouldn't be the case in Vegas.  We'd just be 60,000+ more people to be crammed into the city.  You wouldn't see special events at pubs or restaurants unless a group paid for the space to do something.  You wouldn't see special menus, special beers being brewed just for us, etc.

All of that DOES make a difference.  Would I love to see it in Baltimore or someplace closer to me?  Sure I would.  I'm just as selfish as the next person and would love to not have to travel 20 hours RT for the con.  Would I want to see it move there if it had to change to do so and we lost a lot of what makes it special?  No way.  I'd much rather be a big fish in a small pond than a minnow in the ocean.

Posted by squirecam jobeth66

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.  And with all the hotels getting rid of free parking, that's going to drive up costs in Vegas as well.  I can get from Southport to the ICC in less than 15 minutes.  I can't get from the Bellagio to Venetian in 15 minutes by cab.  The hotels won't provide free shuttles, I've never seen that for the conventions we've been there to attend unless the /convention/ planners are paying for them.  I don't see that happening.  And the monorail isn't necessarily convenient either, and it's definitely not fast.  And yes, depending on the location you could have a short walk.  I have a short walk now - I've got a room reserved at the Homewood Suites 2 blocks from the ICC.  Many people have short walks.  Many other people are going to have to drive, cab, or uber - no different in Indy than in Las Vegas, except that Indy is more centrally located for more attendees.  If you're in a hotel off-strip (which would be cheaper - but cheaper than the further away hotels in Indy?  Unlikely.),

If you fly into Vegas, you wont need a car. So parking is not relevant. If you drive...then right now you probably are flying to Indy. So its better for you.

You COULD stay at the Rio. Thats your call. But there are more hotels within .6 miles of the LVCC than there are in Downtown Indy. And the monorail is $12 for an all day pass. Much better than any Indy transport.

You have no chance at reserving a downtown room in the block if you dont get in the first hour, likely less. Or you can pay $500 a night or more for the few rooms left. In Vegas, those rooms will be cheaper AND wont be gone. You'll be able to find one close if you want it.

If you WANT to stay 5 miles away. Then go ahead. But many people DONT want to but they have little choice or reasonable options right now.

Posted by remnant

For all the people that think Gen Con should move to whatever city... have you checked out what Cons are in those cities already and gone?

Posted by felwred

I did a bit of research and have to back off on one of my statements. Denver has vastly increased it's hotel capacity since the 2008 convention and now has almost 3X the number of downtown hotels than Indy with a convention center roughly the same size (plus available space in the surrounding hotels, etc would increase floorspace by about 50%). Denver would be able to handle the con. It is the most central location in the US with more than ample flights. The only downside is it isn't a 2-3 hour drive from other major cities. You'd be looking at road trips of 6+ hours or fairly cheap flights.

Denver does a good job morphing to welcome events much like Indy and downtown is definitely a walker-friendly area (with VASTLY better restaurants).

Fred

This topic is locked. New posts cannot be added.
2 3 4 6 8
2 3 4 6 8